Some of us are outspoken. Some of us are reserved. Some are easily swayed anyway the wind blows. A few manage to be outspoken yet diplomatic and considered. Some just love their soapboxes.

This is a discussion on the necessity of ‘telling it like it is’ and the cost of doing so.

I would like us all to consider the effect of our actions toward each other, how we deal with the actions of others and what we can do for each other. Namely, how can we discuss problems and problem entities without creating unnecessary and extra-tangential feuds.

To me there is undeniably, a need for people to feel they can be open and frank - especially when it comes to bad experiences such as bullying and harassment, calumniation and deceit. However, standing up and saying ‘I’m Spartacus’ isn’t easy. It comes with risk.

When you share a bad experience publicly or give a warning so that others will avoid the same mistake - you also invariably make yourself the target for retort. Fair or unfair, opinion of one or voice of the people - this is what happens. You the intrepid speaker will likely be subject to scrutiny, your honesty challenged and malicious gossip spread to dent your credibility.

But, if no one stands up and reports the bad news, how do we get to know about it - and deal with it?

So my first set of questions for consideration is….

·Where is the line between the responsibility to others and ‘making a rod for your own back’ ? No-one wants to be the Jeebus of Burlesque...
·Where does the responsibility to your own well being lie?
·Why do some seem to take more of the flack than others?
·Is this fair? Is it fair because they are ‘self nominating’ as speaking up?
·Should there be more support and solidarity or, should everyone just look out for number one (because all warnings and experiences are contentious anyway)?
·Is it bravery, stupidity, vanity, martyrdom or something else, to be outspoken?

Often by ‘outing’ someone or challenging a standpoint, you present yourself as a target for their inevitable retorts and become the focus of counter-criticism. Often one person will stand out and say “I believe X is wrong” and will be the voice of many others, but how fair is it that they stand alone in the shower of arrows that then follows? 'Taking one for the team' only works if there really is a team there. Of course, some people just like getting on their soap boxes and represent no-one and nothing but their own desire to challenge or make noise.

Regardless of circumstances, being outspoken will provide food for thought for some and a blessing to others who share similar experiences/views - but it will also provide an opportunity for those being ‘outed’ to play victim and lay the usual ‘slander’, ‘libel’, ‘personal attack’ card, often deflecting attention away from the important issue or initial warning. Of course sometimes, the warning or statement will be misplaced and unfairly injurious to another party.

So how should situations be handled?

Can we have faith in each other to listen to our subjective experiences and accept them for what they are and how they are intended? Can we have faith in ourselves to keep objective perspective and not get carried away on the excitement of heightening drama?

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Kittie
http://www.kittie.me.uk/
http://www.ministryofburlesque.com/

I'm one of these outspoken people, though I tend to speak on communities/subcultures as a whole rather than specific people. I have thought about pointing out specific people as examples of what I speak (e.g. egregious use of cultural appropriation) but if it's someone I know personally I tend to try to speak to them first about it.

It has let to some backlash, and in one case a known promoter who I've worked with before suddenly didn't want to work with me because I expressed doubt over the relaunch of a program. But I have also garnered a lot of support and respect for my positions, and those really make up for the few that did not react too well.

It does suck to feel that you can't speak up because you'll get some repercussions - that's just a means for the "higher-ups" to maintain control and dominate over the "small fry" unfairly. Hardly anyone wants to be the first penguin, the person to be the first to speak up and get sacrificed, but unless there are people willing to speak up - and people willing to at least honour their right to an opinion - things that need changing will not change.

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Tiara the Merch Girl - Entertaining your fans, making your stage life easier!

This is a really interesting thread and one that I can really relate to. Over a year ago now a performer started a malicious and totally untrue rumour about me and used it to try and get promoters not to book me. This was someone who at one point I had dealt with and even considered a friend (until I found out what they had done). Two unrelated individuals stood up as ‘Spartacus’ for me and warned me what this other performer was doing, despite the fact that she had more clout and prestige than the three of us and if she had found that they had told, would have made life difficult for them. I was so grateful to those two people for coming to me and filling me in on what was going on so that I could do some damage control and try (discreetly) to let people know that she had been lying. I feel like they nailed their colours to the mast for me by coming and warning me and they are both people who had nothing to gain from telling me and possibly something to lose if it came to light that they had said something.

This then led me to another dilemma. Did I keep quiet or did I out this person publicly as a manipulator and a liar? If I did, I would have to face their anger at being found out and the risk that they would stick to their lie and people would believe them rather than me or that they would up their campaign to try and ruin my reputation. At the time this person was a much bigger fish than me (they probably still are) and I wasn’t just small-fry, I was practically no-fry. I was convinved that nobody except those who knew me or the other person well would believe me. In the end I decided to let it blow over and not to out the person. It was a cowardly decision but as I felt that outing her would have only benefited me, only I would lose out if I didn’t.

Unfortunately, I was wrong. This person did lose interest in me after a while, which was good for me, but they began the exact same campaign of lies and telling promoters not to book against three other performers that I know of. Lately, every time her name comes someone knows someone she did something similar to and it seems that for a lot of people, when she says something about a fellow performer it is now more often than not taken with a pinch of salt.

So should I have said something? I’m still not sure whether it was the right decision. It was definitely the right thing for me from a selfish point of view but if I had outed her when she lied about me perhaps when she told similar lies about the next person people would have questioned it more. It’s so hard to speak out, especially when you have a vested interest (such as protecting your own name) and even harder still when the person you are speaking out against is in a position of power and you are not.

From the other side of the coin though, it is hard sometimes as an outsider to know where the truth lies and who is being honest and speaking up and who is just causing trouble. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but from the way people are when you meet them and when they post online you can sometimes get a feel for who is being honest and who isn’t. Sometimes.

Great thread!

Very interesting post Kittie
For me its always been a problem of keeping my mouth shut. If I feel that I have been wronged or a friend I will stand up for myself and them.
Last year I felt so alone when a promoter cheated me out of a payment by giving me a rubber cheque. I brought it to this and another forum and it did open a can of worms. But I am still glad I did it as I found out this person had been ripping not just me but many other performers and suppliers.
Due to me outing this person I was payed by a completely different person as they respected my honesty. I made new friends and I was also given the gift of the most amazing cry-staled parasol, that makes me very happy when it rains.
I have learnt that you can not go blustering in with out all the facts, I did this in the past. I have also learnt the power of the internet. I have refrained from outing bad promoters since as I feel it is not fair to MOB or other forums as their name gets dragged into it as well.
I know use my own face book or just a simple line of asking has anyone had dealings with.... and try and leave it ambiguous and let people come to me and talk about it privately.
To end this I think I will always stick up for friends even if it gets me in trouble its just the kind of person I am.
Best
Diva x

groan !!

sooo much to write , too little time .

I'll come back to this post next week but suffice to say
you have all heard me have a rant or two

i defend my friends and rat on rats !!!
i don't think it's cost me too much perhaps a few gigs with certain promoters . . . but when you are in a "position of power" with people looking up to you i think there is a responsibility to be honest .

with great power comes great responsibility !! - superman



x x x

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YouTube - RedSarah's fire showreel

In agreement with everything that has been previously stated.

I've spoken to a few MOBers off-forum about how in my first year performing burlesque; I was definitely blacklisted by certain promoters for being difficult. I wasn't, I was trying to change burlesque's attitudes towards things that are standard in the entertainments industry - like contracts, not cancelling on the day, providing adequate fees and appropriate dressing rooms.

Realising that the UK burlesque industry wasn't really ready for that; I started to take a back seat and leave my opinion out of things. If someone asked privately, I would advise and then step away. I also realised that promoters who won't deal with contracts aren't people I want to work for anyway.

Two years ago, I was involved with a venue that continually took the piss, booking performers on high fees; agreeing expenses then denying amounts on the night etc. I decided despite the regular (and to be honest very easy work) that Frayed Knot would no longer work for the venue.

It affected our projected income but I felt we had to make a stand. We explained this to the venue managers and were told we were idiots; would never work in that city again blah blah (I've since worked a futher 6 times there!) At the time, I was quite vocal in telling other burlesque performers to stay well away from the venue.

Anyway, that NYE, a circus friend of ours (I hadn't thought to tell the circus community!) travelled to that venue and was completely fucked over. Asked to perform in dangerous conditions, physically threatened by the doormen & manager (bearing in mind she is roughly the same size as me), barred from leaving without performing and told she would not be paid. Thankfully, she stood her ground and got her payment, even though they threw it on the floor for her to pick up. She just laughed.

Friend drives back from venue, straight to my house (early NYD!) and after raging for hours we draft a letter to Equity. I then told as MANY people as possible - I thought about posting on here and eventually posted a vague question on FB describing the venue's theme and if any performers were booked to get in touch.

That week I get a threatening phonecall from the venue; I just hung up and knew we were getting somewhere. Equity eventually gave up on the case as the venue went bankrupt HAHAHAHAHAHA! (ahem!)

So, cut forward to summer, the venue is somehow up and running and I get an email from an independant promoter wanting me to perform at their inaugral event. At this venue.

I very carefully explained my reasons for blacklisting the venue; and also pointed out it would be difficult to book additional performers. Fantastically, the promoter said she wanted to work with FK so much, she would CHANGE THE VENUE! Instead, the event went ahead in a nearby city, sold out and I'm delighted to say the shithead venue lost out on a lot of revenue

It's difficult standing up; I wasn't sure if this promoter would just give up on me, call me a bitch or worst case be actually involved with the venue.

Last year alone, I kicked up a fuss for several performers in order to get paid at events including marching one promoter to a cashpoint.

Sadly, some of those performers have appeared for a second time at those shows; I wasn't rebooked (not sure I would have wanted to) but I wonder if those performers learnt anything at all or just have no self-worth?

If you let people walk over you, it will continue to happen. If you stand up, yes there will be some repercussions but I really believe you will begin to perform at better events, be taken more seriously (not having your name on the same well known bad show three times a year etc)

I'm rambling now, but final example. There is a new show in the north that due to loyalty to the promoter of another show in that city FK will not perform at. It was dirty tactics on behalf of the new promoter, bad politics and well direct lack of imagination for a new night. Its good pay, easy to get too but from what I hear poorly attended so probably not too much fun.

Some MOBers will think we're idiots for not just taking the money and doing the show. However, I really believe in developing relationships with performers, promoters in this industry and our favoured promoter is just too lovely to let down. Regardless, we know we'll perform for our promoter in the future, have an amazing night AND be supported by that event in return.

I would much rather be outspoken, ignored by the petty gigs, have a quieter schedule but ultimately less stress in my life.

Great thread Kittie

xx

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The littler half of Frayed Knot

I have been outspoken on a few occasions. I have even gone as fair as to stand in front of a promoter who was screaming a lass to perform, which I rather quietly informed him to pick a window or go to the door because one way or another he was leaving! I have seen performers told they are shit and even been told by one established performer I was performing with I had to change my routine as she didnt like it. If you let one person walk over you they will always do it.

I have had enough of being nice Khandie. I have been taken advantage of in the past such as not being paid for 4 months after all other performers had been paid because promoter had run out of money and I 'wouldnt kick up a fuss'. Got that wrong!

I have seen so much dirty tactics from performers and promoters alike. I was pushed down some stairs at one show, so hard that a drag queen saved me! All because I am friends with someone they didnt like. I remained professional but before I could say anything my fall breaking queen told the nasty pieces of work where to go.

Being outspoken is not a bad thing but its how you do it. I know that one 'gentleman' who I met for a brief moment at a show, decided we were in a relationship and when i didnt reciprocate these feelings he actually phoned a promoter to spread malicious lies about me. I confronted both individuals and sorted it out (one had the threat of police involvement and one apologised for listening to the rumours). Being outspoken and being rude are two seperate things. You have to remain professional and in control of your temper. Get all the facts before launching into something and never surrender your morals.

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Inspired Chaos
http://www.KhandieKhisses.com

this is a great thread!
i must pick up on the lying bit in particular.. when people play the victim to distract!
i've recently come under scrutiny, by someone posting a blog completely making up incidents that have happened over the past few years,

because i private messaged them to inform them they were lying to people.

as kittie has said - people will play the victim, when they're in danger of being outed....

theres too many situations that have cropped up over the years to mention, but that one in particular has been effecting me as of late.

but as kittie said... some people are easily swayed where the wind blows...
using amelies situation as a good example - its one persons word against another! and often it takes a situation to happen, in which that to change.

amelie may have said to people "don't perform here! they're bad people"
but the people do it anyway, for money, or because the person has said "no! we're not bad people. that amelie is a bad one!"
but hey ho. truth comes out eventually i suppose!

the money thing is interesting....
often i will take shows i don't want to do - just because of the money.
now, i'm feeling the blow of some of my past associations.
i wasn't outspoken when i felt uncomfortable with these people, or places. but i wish i was!

i just can't say no.
which leaves myself, and others who do the same - sometimes in bad situations where we can come under the firing line in the future, because of someone elses bad work.

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We're very concerned...
www.myspace.com/misterjoeblack
www.misterjoeblack.com

A recurring theme in all of these responses seems to be the difference between business and personal matters.

Sadly, it seems, not everyone manages to make the distinction and the two get muddled up. I suppose this may have naturally arisen out of the burlesque scene's nature of encouraging us to support one another. We may not have the same level of community as appears to hold strong in America (from my own personal observations I'd say this is owing to the UK having a higher level of competition) but many of us still feel like we're in this together, so to speak.

Certainly I can distinguish between personal and professional problems... and sometimes one can affect the other. I've had instances in which personal issues have affected professional relationships (e.g. animosity can make it difficult to communicate clearly with someone in a professional environment) and likewise professional behaviours can affect personal friendships (i.e. I know of a performer who's fallen out with an agent because the agent has chosen to work with the performer's ex-partner's new lover... despite suggesting to him/her that business is business, they remained hurt and unable to distinguish between the politics of friendship and of business).

Perhaps part of the dilemma here lies in the tendency for private/professional relationships to get all tangled up in one another. And if this is so, I can't see a clear path forward - I certainly wouldn't want to drop my burlesque friendships simply in order to make business less emotional.

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vonbourbon.com - twitter - facebook - formspring - YouTube - MySpace

i don't know about others who do this full time,
most of your friends become the people you work with
due to traveling away and performing so much - these are the people you see the most and bond with most!
if i dropped performance friendships, to keep business less emotional,
i'd never see my friends!!!

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We're very concerned...
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